On death threats, responsibility, and making it clear

[Edit: Hello lovelies. Yes, since I wrote this article we're up to five - or is it six? - extra layers of claim and counter-claim and revelation and events. I have absolutely no possibility of keeping up with it, and am no longer trying to. Whatever happened or did not happen, the point I wrote this article to make is still 100% valid. Thanks.]

A wee bit of background, for people not in the loop:

Naomi Dunford runs a site called Ittybiz.

Recently, Naomi wrote a post that said that she had received death threats.

These are facts.

There are also plenty of opinions and rumours flying around. Let’s get a few key ones on the table.

Rumours like:

Late last year Naomi left her husband Jamie and shortly thereafter ran away with Dave Navarro – the launch guy, not the guitarist.

Naomi ran her yearly sale for her husband’s birthday after they’d split up.

Opinions like:

Naomi heavily promoted Dave’s work, announcing she was a completely disinterested party giving advice, and that was… disingenous, to say the least.

Naomi has been manipulative/skeezy/dishonest/unethical/counter-brand in the last year.

The rumours may or may not be true. The opinions are of course entirely subjective.

But let’s, for the sake of me having a useful discussion without qualifying every single sentence, make a few assumptions.

Let’s assume that Naomi did leave her husband, then have a sale for him, then run away to Europe with Non-Guitarist Dave, then promote Non-Guitarist Dave’s work as if she had no stake in it, then continue running her business while talking about none of these events.

Let’s also assume that she received death threats exactly in the manner she said.

These are two completely separate issues.

Let me say this again:

Naomi’s actions and the actions of the people who sent her death threats are completely separate issues.

Naomi is responsible for her actions.

The death-threat-senders – let us call them the Murderous Assholes for short – are responsible for their actions.

We tend to forget this.

We say, “Well, death threats are clearly Not Cool, but she did run away with another woman’s husband…”

No.

NO.

Naomi Dunford is not in any way responsible for the Murderous Assholes sending her death threats. Naomi is responsible for what Naomi has said and done, and nothing else.

The only people who are responsible for sending death threats are the mysognistic fuckheads who send them.

They own that. Only them.

When we are talking about this issue, or anything else like it, we MUST delineate responsibility.

I own my actions.

You own yours.

And there is not one single “but so-and-so did this” that alters our responsibility.

If you punch someone, it doesn’t matter what they said beforehand. You own that punch.

If you deceive someone, it doesn’t matter how much you needed the money. You own that deceit.

If you send a death threat, it doesn’t matter what that person did or did not do. You own that threat.

We are at all times reponsible for our own actions. And when we talk about situations where actions have followed after each other, we have to be careful to remember that the previous action doesn’t own the one that comes after.

Only the person who did it owns the action.

It doesn’t matter what Naomi did or did not do. Someone sent her a death threat, and they own it.

I want to keep this very, very clear.

Because then I can separate out the controversial and rebellious and gossipalicious aspects of Naomi being… Naomi and get right to the point.

There are people who send threats to women if they become visibly powerful.

There are people who will persist in ugliness and grow more dangerous over time in order to get those women to shut up, hide, and go away.

This is entirely their own responsibility.

There is nothing about the woman that is relevant. Whether she was nice. Whether she was a bitch. Whether she slept with six hundred people. Whether she is thin or fat. Whether she acted ethically or unethically.

Is your “Yeah, but…” turning up? Turn it off.

The personality and actions of any woman being subjected to these kinds of threats is irrelevant. She might murder kittens on her front lawn, it doesn’t matter.

There are people who send threats to women if they become visibly powerful.

Any kind of woman.

When we are responding to it, we must, MUST address the situation without any of the “Yeah, but…”.

Do not muddy the waters, and allow the Murderous Assholes to think that what they are doing is acceptable if only the woman in question is outspoken/unconventional/adulterous/whatever enough.

There is no justification that is acceptable for sending death threats. None.

There are people who send threats to women if they become visibly powerful.

And that will continue being acceptable for as long as we allow it to be.

What I’m going to do about it

I was playing around with my first website when Kathy Sierra shut down her site due to persistent and alarming death threats. I loved her site, and I was distraught both at the loss of her wisdom and what it meant for me as a budding online entrepreneur.

I knew that it might be a part of what was coming for me, and I decided then what I would do about it.

NOT ONE DAMN THING.

I would live my life and run my business the way I wanted to, and I would display my address and my phone number and anything else I wanted to, and fuck those assholes who might come at me.

My address is , Holland Park, Queensland. If you’re coming from the city you’ll probably want to take the expressway and get off at the Marshall Road exit.

I completely and utterly refuse to hide.

I completely and utterly refuse to be less than myself because there are people around who may threaten me.

I own my actions, and my choice is to shine as bright as I can.

I feel compassion for the people who find that threatening. But I will still break their kneecaps if they come at me.

Here I am.


  • Anonymous

    Very nicely put. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Thank you, lovely.

  • http://profiles. Mary Rarick

    You are badass and that’s why we love you. You go, girl!

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You’ll note that the directions work for nice people, too. They’re one big reason I have enough guts to yell BRING IT ON.

  • http://kirstyhall.co.uk/blog/ Kirsty Hall

    I fucking love you, Catherine. 

    But shit, Naomi’s getting death threats? What the hell?

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Ah, 2011. So damn enlightened.

      (P.S. Mwah!)

      • http://kirstyhall.co.uk/blog/ Kirsty Hall

        This has reminded me about the comment exchange I had earlier this year with a guy who took extreme exception to a post I’d written & threatened to sexually torture me with his sculptures. Ah, the joys of being an art blogger. Not for me, mere death threats, no, I get threatened with sculpture. How very Beetlejuice.

        To be fair, he did come back and apologise the next day & he admitted that he’d been on drugs at the time (the internet & drugs, kiddies, just say no!) But it was still a tad disturbing.

        Of course, I’m not sure what it says about me that I was far more upset that he insulted my work.

        • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

          I… have no response to that.

          • Kirstyhall

            That was kind of my reaction. I was all ‘wait, did he just threaten to sexual torture me with a sculpture?’

        • Jen

          give him my number,I know people who could really go for that :)

      • http://kirstyhall.co.uk/blog/ Kirsty Hall

        Hahaha, me too actually. And his work was pretty good. In a Bladerunner death machine kind of way.

  • Anonymous

    The whole situation makes my stomach hurt, esp. as one of the hate bloggers in question likes to insult me and call me a scammer, too, as well as making personal comments about my weight and other highly relevant matters.

    People really need to know not to feed these ugly hate mobs. It seems to make people feel good about themselves to jump into these anonymous mobs and take pot shots. 

    I’m hoping N will file harassment charges, but it’s scary. We’re not just facing one jerk, but the entire angry mob he incites. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Mine, too. I’m sorry that you’re also receiving the flung nastiness.

      But I am profoundly glad that you’re here, and Naomi, and Pam Slim, and lots of other amazing women. Thank you for enduring, and triumphing over it.

  • Jen

    great gutsy post :0 I have a lot of time for Naomi and am not particularly concerned about her truthfulness …I’ve seen worse..her words work, she adds value to my inbox and keeps me inspired…although recently seems much more sales driven…but…
    wish she’d respond by re-publishing every post she’s ever written
    when people try to shut you up you just have to shout louder.. :)

  • Salty Droid

    Sonia Simone ::

    Have I said mean things about your weight? I think maybe that’s just in your paranoid imagination. 

    I mean :: I’m totally going to and everything :: but I’m busting out of the Copyblogger mold and doing something totally insane … writing my own posts.  So it takes time … be patient.

    I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Dundford’s harassment charges though because …

    a) there is no such thing
    b) she is a liar

    On the other hand :: I am seriously considering bringing a lawsuit against her … so anyone who wants to stand strong for womenkind and be part of that fun is welcome to keep using words like “murderous” when describing my humanitarian project.

    Personally I think stepping in front of high speed freight train is a terrible idea … but to each her own.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Hello Salty (Mr Droid?),

      This particular article was written to address the reactive victim-blaming I was seeing in my community before most of us had any details on what the threats could possibly be. 

      I’d like to keep it on track, please.

      Although I will derail myself to say one thing: a number of people sent me to visit your site as a result of writing this article. I spent a couple of days reading the comments and posts before the high-confrontation feel starting making me feel anxious, but I did see how respectfully you and the commenters treated Jade Craven when she engaged with you.

      I admire that, and appreciate you for it.

      Catherine

      • SaltyDroid

        One point to you Catherine Caine for leaving my comment up. But I looked at your products pages … and read a bunch of this blog … and I listened to that whole Goddamn Radiant hour with Shanna Manna … and I think you might need to score some more points.

        If this debacle was the first you’ve ever heard of me … then don’t you wonder why? I’m more successful at “blogging” and “branding” than any ten of you together … hows come I’m such a secret? 

        I promise you that Jade Craven’s braveness was not rewarded by yourside like it was by myside.  Why do you think that is Cash and Joy?

        Oh and Catherine … I’m the one fighting victim-blamers … and Naomi is the most horrible victim-blamer I’ve ever seen … which you 100% already knew. This post is a travesty considering what you knew before you posted it … and what you didn’t know about “murderous” lil’ me.

        I’ll c around the cyberspaces Catherine Caine.

        • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

          Hello again.

          I probably have never heard of you before because my filters are set up to avoid this kind of confrontation. (For me, it is very unjoy.) I like revealers of truth, but your style is so different from mine if I had heard of you I wouldn’t have followed a link, or remembered it.

          I know plenty of people on “my side” who were also impressed by Jade. We both know why that might not have been universal – people WERE choosing sides, and acting with all the partisan partiality we tend towards in circumstances like that.

          What did I know before I posted this article?

          Also, “Murderous Assholes” was referring to people who sent death threats. Since you haven’t, I’m not referring to you.

      • SaltyDroid

        So CC :: have you been told to delete my comments yet?

        It’s not allowed you know.  Like if I go to one of your copyblogger posts and leave a comment right now … like I say …

        “Spot on Catherine … I really needed this just now.”

        Then that won’t print … right Sonia? Because I can’t exist CC … if I exist then EVERYTHING is ruined.

        So you should think about that shit because it is deep … you don’t have to like me … or read me … but why can’t I exist?  

        If you want to move forward with this BS … then you should delete me. Or you could move on instead … which is what love and not-cash want you to do … and me also. 

        I hear smarts in your voice CC :: I know you know this is all bullshit. And I don’t mean Naomi … I mean all of it. You know. I know you know.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      No, Salty, I haven’t been told to delete your comments. Even if I had, I wouldn’t: this is my space and my rules are to not delete any comments that add value to the conversation.

      The same way that everyone manages their own space, like your comment voting system. 

      I would fight vigorously for your right to exist, Salty, but I still have the choice on whether you’re allowed in my space. And with that, no more covert attacks on Sonia. 

      Back to the point!

      I am open about the reasons that I started this website: partly because I couldn’t find marketing resources that were about loving your work as much as they were about making money, partly because I wanted to have more fun from my marketing and less ROI spreadsheets, and partly, yes, because there was bullshit that I disagreed with.

      It was not ALL bullshit.

      I learned from Naomi.
      I learned from Dave.
      I learned from Sonia.

      I spent considerable amounts of money with them. And I am glad I did, because they were foundational to me creating a business that has been a success for me. I have made back much more than ten times what I spent, and consider my investments worthwhile.

      So I agree with you that there are people out there using practices that are flat-out WRONG. They’re the online equivalent of the scumbags who sell security systems to little old ladies, pocket the cash and never come back – rip-off merchants.

      And I agree with you that Naomi (assuming the conversation you released was legit, which I shall) has done things that are flat-out WRONG. Tax avoidance is wrong. Treating your customers like a commodity? Deeply uncool.

      But the resources Naomi sold me? Helped me, and were worth the money I paid.

      And I’m getting off track again! De-de-railment time.

      If I read an article that you wrote where you said you’d received death threats and I saw people reacting with, “Well, yeah. I mean, that Salty guy… he says a lot of vitriolic things. He kinda had this coming to him,” then I would have written the exact same article I wrote here, but without the exploration of the gender issues.

      P.S. Thank you for the compliment! I’m wickedly tempted to add it to my testimonials. :)

  • SaltyDroid

    CC :: 

    1) Those weren’t covert Sonia attacks … they were bold face.

    2) I’ve had more death threats than Naomi’s had emails. There are posts about it on the blog … but I know you can’t be reading the “hate” for the sake of your feng shui or whatevers.

    There’s no joy on this path Catherine … or cash. 

  • http://simplifilm.com Chris Johnson

    I have a few things to say about this, and it seems that it makes the most sense to do it in a post.  If Naomi was threatened, the IP address should be made public so we can all work together to track it down.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Action Detective Vengeance Squad? I’ll pass.

      I think I’m doing enough for right now to just be here, Chris.

      • Anonymous

        If someone is getting death threats, then I do think they should investigate to find out who’s sending them, and if some of us can help with the tech aspects of that, I don’t think that’s a vengeance squad. The people who make these threats think they can remain anonymous, which is what gives them courage. 

        Also, it’s against the law to send death threats. Law enforcement won’t do the work to find out who’s sending the messages, they don’t have the resources, but if we do, we may be able to help ourselves.

        • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

          That bit I’m entirely up for. As long as we’re not feeding the troll flames by taking anything into our electronic hands, or worse, making our own angry mob.

      • http://simplifilm.com Chris Johnson

        This is about what I had had in mind. That’s what I had had in mind. I’m going to leave this alone because I get too interested in Drama and that doesn’t save for my kid’s college fund.  

  • Jen

    Its Salty Droid…I think…..google it..annoying that we’re adding to his traffic though

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      I don’t know who the source she quotes is. Salty Droid certainly has no shortage of critical things to say, but I don’t want to judge without knowledge.

  • Paul Cunningham

    I read a post once by a blogger asking for feedback. I pointed out that their use of the word “homicidal” to describe how they feel towards a group of people that they described in the post was not something I felt was right.

    They have their “Yeah but…’s” for that.

    Ultimately my view is simple – whether I have the legal right to say or write something, such as a hateful opinion, a figurative threat, a suggestive “Somebody should….”, is all irrelevant to me. I feel a strong ethical and moral obligation not to be the one who whips a crowd (or a lone nut) into a frenzy and have them take things too far.

    I just couldn’t live with it, even if I’m legally within my rights to do so.

    Good post Catherine.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Beautifully said, Paul. Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    One quick comment to add — (hopefully this goes without saying) — this hate guy and his mob are not exactly fact checkers. There are some false personal things that have been posted about N on the web — just because you found it on Google doesn’t make it true.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Which is of course one of the reasons I stuck to only two facts. I have no idea how much any of the rest is true, even if it does matter in this case (which it doesn’t).

  • http://veganza.com Renée MBM

    Hey, I drive past your house regularly! Also, well said.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You should come have tea some day!

      • http://erinunleashes.com Erin

        that’s the first thing I thought when you posted that – oh, how i would just drop in for tea if it didn’t involve a 24 hour plane ride first ;) .  actually, that makes me sad, now i want to have tea with you. :(

        also: i’m responsible for my actions, you’re responsible for yours and the shoutout to compassion for people who are threatened by brightness but still willing to break knee caps – love it.  

        love.

        • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

          Don’t fret, I shall be on your side of the world within the next year. Tea possibilities abound!

          • http://erinunleashes.com Erin

            oh, i like the sound of that.  tea. possibilities. you.  

        • Jen

          does that mean UK or US ? or both :) )))))

      • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

        North America, for sure. The rest in the fulness of time. :)

    • http://www.mywholehouse.com Do Mi Stauber

      Ooh, ooh, I want to have tea too! 

      And I adore you. Thank you so much for posting this.

  • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

    There shall be tea.

    It’s like There Will BE Blood, except… not.

    And you’re welcome. :)

  • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

    There shall be tea.

    It’s like There Will BE Blood, except… not.

    And you’re welcome. :)

  • http://veganza.com Renée MBM

    That would be nifty! It’ll have to be soon. I’m moving a few thousand kilometres away soon…!

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      I’m here pretty much every day. Send me an email with a few times that work for you!

  • Peggie Arvidson

    Dear Catherine A-fing-men.  All I can ever do is think about the whole “she/he who is without sin, go ahead and cast…”  And that sends me down my own past, my own choices and so on and so on. 

    And then — DEATH THREATS.  This is amoral.  A life is a life and threatening to take someone else’s shows me how f-ing little you think of yours.  There is NO CAUSE in my mind that begets a death threat.

    Keep on keepin’ on.

    Peace baby.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Peace to us all, darlingheart.

  • Shawna R. B. Atteberry

    Catharine, you’ll have to do an #emmit search on Twitter: This is what we talked about today. I’m like you: bring it on. So was and :twitter : we are the hitwomen of the Emmit group. We’re not scared to take out knee caps either. Thank you for saying it doesn’t matter what Naomi did or didn’t do: nothing warrants death threats!

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Thank you, Shawna. :)

  • http://customerlove.me LaVonne Ellis

    Thank you for saying this, Catherine. Totally agree. I’d say the same if it was Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann, two women I REALLY dislike. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Exactly. And the more you stand up against the jerkwads who make Palin “jokes”, the harder it is for people to make any of those threats, anywhere.

  • http://www.letsradiate.com Michelle

    Like I said on Facebook, this is an AWESOME POST. And it unfortunately applies in too many situations – any time a woman is being harassed or violated in some manner, someone seems to come up with their “Yeah but…”s. The “Yeah but…”s can quite frankly, shove it. There is NO EXCUSE for EVER violating someone in ANY way or threatening to do so. Period, full stop, endoffuckingstory. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Exactly. Victim-blaming is a big steaming pile of poo, and I’m no longer going to put up with it.

  • http://www.bridgetpilloud.com Bridget

    Catherine-
    I heartily agree that
    1. everyone should have the opportunity to say what they want without inciting death threats. 
    2. Death threats are never acceptable. Ever. No matter what somebody wore, did with whom or for what.
    3. People who say otherwise do not value life.
    4. There are people who are threatened by successful women and will say terrible things because they are misogynists.

    Hoping for the very best for all involved.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Elegantly summarised, lovely.

  • http://andydolph.com Andy Dolph

    Thank you for approaching this with such clarity and power.  You’re not only right, but also helpful.  I don’t undersand why people think that violence or threats of violence will help anything.  I hope I never do.

    Peace to all.

    Andy

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You’re not only right, but also helpful.<— Thank you for that. I was definitely trying for both.

  • Babs

    Gee, no double standard on the net.  Naomi gets death threats; Dave Navarro gets a site dedicated to “helping a brother who has lost his way.”  She should have taken off with Dave Navarro the guitarist.  

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      There’s a lot to unpack in that comment, Babs. I shall try.

      1. There are indeed plenty of double standards, ‘cos there are plenty of people on the internet. And we bring all our baggage online.
      2. Being on tour with Jane’s Addiction might be fun.
      3. But the guitarist is rather funny-looking.

      • Shanna Mann

        Besides, if I recall, Dave posted a very affecting article when he divorced about how he felt he’d lost his entire community as a result (I gathered he was Mormon or something of the sort.) Just to put the “brother who lost his way” comment into context… and to highlight the fact that the two issues are not in anyway similar.

        • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

          Yep, let’s stay detangled from the whos and such. Threatening death to anyone, ever, is wrong.

  • karen gunton

    when i woke up this morning to naomi’s email i felt sick. as a ‘new’ girl on the blogging block it scares the shit out of me that this riduculousness is happening. i have had my share of troll-y hate, but this is downright crazy. my favorite thing about naomi’s response and yours here catherine is the urge to KEEP ON BEING AMAZING. so that’s my way of saying fuck you to the haters too — off to do something amazing…
    (and thanks for keeping the focus here on the crime, not the victim. you rock!)

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      That why I wrote this, Karen. That is EXACTLY why. So please do keep rocking it out.

      Much love,
      Catherine

  • LezleyDavidson

    I love you.
    <3<3<3

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Well, that makes it all worthwhile. :)

  • Anonymous

    I agree with what you have said – that they are two separate issues – but I think the way she approached this issue is just going to promote a whole lot more hate.

    She told a few porkie pies in her recent post which is fair enough, probably trying to avoid people finding the recent post, but I believe that is enough to encourage more posts.

    My whole schtick is monitoring word of mouth and this doesn’t look good. But as much as I’d wish they’d go away – as certain aspects of the last 9 months have directly caused me stress – but yeah. Good, clear post that I think a lot of us needed

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Sweetie love, there’s a couple of lurking “Yeah, but…”s in your comment.

      I gently encourage you to make one unequivocal “Threatening people is just flat-out freaking WRONG” statement somewhere before you jump into the complexities and nuances of this one.

      • Anonymous

        It’s wrong. Very wrong.

        Feeding the trolls is just going to make it worse. It looks like it will get far more messy and the threats will extend beyond her.

        Hopefully it wont.

        My point was mixed up as I’d just woken up and read all this.

        • http://www.amandafarough.com/ Amanda F.

          Troll baiting is bad news bears. But truthtelling? This goes beyond trolling. This is flat out hatemongering. 

      • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

        Thank you for that, lovely. I hope so too.

  • http://www.skajawills.com skaja wills

    Brilliant post. Thank you for saying it.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You’re welcome, lovely.

  • http://www.amandafarough.com/ Amanda F.

    You are crazy awesome. Adore you to hell and back, gorgeous. This is all shit that needed to be said and you stole the words right from my brain. Death threats? Fucking BRING IT. I’m bigger and meaner than the lot of ‘em.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Don’t mess with the zombie!

      *high five*

  • http://TheInvisibleOffice.com Erica Cosminsky

    Case in point: I’ve received threats in the recent past, telling me that I had no right to be in business or online because- of all things- that I’m a single mother. 
    I don’t know Naomi well but what the heck does anything in her personal life have to do with her business? I’d say just about as much as my issues. All we need is the fruit-loops of the world banding together.This crawls all over me. And I’m not sure if it’s the extent of the threats again her or because my threats were local and dude showed up at my apartment. Fortunately our issues ended abruptly because aforementioned baby-daddy-who’s-a-former-Marine was here and I own an AR-15.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      That is messed up and I’m sorry you had to go through it.

      It crawls all over me too, and I’ve never been through what she’s describing, or what you are.

      Thank you for sharing it, lovely.

  • http://www.byjanet.net/purple Purple Panda

    Well i guess i didn’t know the rumours/gossip about Naomi and maybe she’s just trying to play the “i’m a woman victim” card when there’s more to the story on her side to egg on the negative attention. But it doesn’t really matter because there is NO excuse for this type of bullying and threats. I am appalled. i was so appalled that I decided to write my own blog article about it. As a more lesser known “newbie” blogger, I have found it inspiring to step up and “shout” louder and play a BIGGER game online. I am making my own excuses but the only way to stop these assholes is to be a stronger force. And I am not going to stop, in fact, it’s inspired me to keep on going bigger and better!

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      That is a gorgeous response, Janet, one from strength. Well done.

      But it doesn’t really matter because there is NO excuse for this type of bullying and threats. <— exactly.

  • Mary Jane

    Hey Catherine,
    Well said.  I am new to blogging.  I read Naomi’s blog, and find her advice helpful.  Her personal life is her private business.  However, I do find the “blame the woman” schtick abusive and outrageous.  Unfortunately, it goes on all the time.  It is never acceptable to harass or threaten anyone, not ever.  Death threats are a crime.  You are so awesome to so totally stand up. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Thank you, Mary Jane. It’s a hard thing to encounter when you’re new to blogging – I hope this article helps keep you brave and bold, too.

  • Mary Jane

    Isn’t there some way to find out who these creeps are and involve law enforcement? 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      There might be, depending on how they sent the threats. I don’t know enough about that to be sure.

  • Ali Mac

    Thank you so much for saying this.

    I read Naomi’s post yesterday and a couple of minute’s Googling led me to one of the hate sites that she quotes from.  An incredibly nasty little troll dungeon, and honestly frightening, because they stir stuff up and while they might think they’re ‘joking’, God knows what their hangers-on feel empowered to do. It’s insidious and very very hard to counter (doing it for the LULZ, obv).  While in one sense they are equal-opportunity trolls (there are plenty of attacks on other prominent male bloggers) it was obvious to me that part of the targeting of Naomi was precisely because of the rumour engine about her private life.  They didn’t think she’d be able to fight back.   I’ve been on the internet since God was a lad and I know just how hard it is to counter the 4chan-style mobs -  but standing up together helps. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You quoting Anonymous makes me oddly happy, for some reason.

      But you’re right, you’re absolutely right. The most important thing is to weather the storm and live on.

      • Ali Mac

        Mmm. I once saw a Lulz devotee and their sidekicks play absolute merry hell with the election of an online representative.  That came with death threats, too, and outing threats, and all manner of nastiness for the other candidates.  Damned if you do react and damned if you don’t. 

        • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

          Okay, that is much less fun.

  • Evan

    Well, I do think Naomi would share responsibility if she had made death threats.  As it is she doesn’t share any at all.  I do think self defense is relevant.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Well, of course. But then she’d be responsible only for hers.

      I mean, I just advocated knee-capping anyone who attempts to come at me, and I don’t feel that’s inconsistent. I’d still take responsibility for the knee-capping, of course.

  • http://giventogratitude.com Teresa

    This is an awesome post – well presented and clarifying something I believe to be true: that we must own our own actions.

    Your post assumes that her post about the threats is true. And the only thing I can say to that is, I’m just not sure it is. From some place deep in my guts it feels like it’s not really the way she told it.

    Regardless of whether it is fully true or not, death threats be damned, yes, let’s all keep doing what we’re doing, let’s not be stopped for anything!

    Hugs and butterflies,
    ~Teresa~

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You’ll notice, lovely, that I consciously made that assumption for the purposes of discussion. Because I have no proof one way or the other.

      Things are undoubtedly more complicated and nuanced than anyone can write into an article of that sort. And that’s a problem, because in those nuances hide a LOT of “Yeah, but…”s.

      As you said, “Regardless of whether it is fully true or not, death threats be damned,
      yes, let’s all keep doing what we’re doing, let’s not be stopped for
      anything!”

      YES.

  • James Chartrand

    Late to the party. And I’ll all say is, well said.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Hey James, and thank you.

  • Anonymous

    Perfectly said. Thank you. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      You’re very welcome, lovely.

  • Kelli Wise

    I, too, remember when Kathy Sierra was terrorized off the internet. And I was deeply saddened because I loved her blog. In fact, hers was one of the first blog I ever read on a regular basis.

    I don’t know the backstory behind Dave/Naomi or the family dynamic with Dave’s brother and, frankly, don’t care. They have no bearing on whether I will continue to read their blogs. I do care, very much, about the death threats. Everything you’ve said above is exactly how I feel Thank you.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Thank you for sharing all of that, Kelli.

  • Donna Fontenot

    I don’t follow Naomi simply because her style doesn’t suit me, but I admire her ability to be herself, nonetheless. Regardless of whether or not her style, or actions, or whatever the “issues” might be that others are so “against”, nothing, absolutely nothing makes what those hatemongers are doing, in any way right. I too remember Kathy’s situation a few years ago. As a long-time female blogger, in an industry that isn’t exactly loved by the masses, I hope I never have to face this type of hatred. I’ve been a victim of senseless violence in the long ago past, in real life, so I know what it’s like. I also know that I’d never, ever go quietly down in the face of such violence again. I do hope, however, that I never again have to make that choice, and I strongly hope that some day, some century, no one has to make that choice. Threats, violence, hatred…it’s all just ridiculous that it even exists. To those people who enjoy such things, stop it! Just stop it!

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Beautifully said, Donna. Damn right.

  • Colin Beveridge

    Responding to peacefully-held and expressed opinions with violence or threats is absolutely, categorically wrong.

    Well said, Catherine.

    One thing I’ve learned over the last few days: there are an awful lot of good-hearted bad-asses out there. If ever I need to call on a team of fighting internet superheroes, I know where to look.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      *cape in the wind*

      It’s the upside of the ugly, how many people are beautiful.

  • http://annieandersonblog.com Annie Anderson

    those fuckers deserve a titty twister.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      I can see why you’re a copywriter, that’s a truly fabulous turn of phrase. :)

      • http://thesocialjoint.com/ Lucretia M Pruitt

        Pardon me – but wouldn’t that very phrase and your response be a form of suggesting violence toward “those fsckers” and condoning it?
        I honestly had no intention of commenting on this until I read this particular comment and response. It made the rest of the “violence isn’t alright, ever” commentary seem hypocritical.

        • http://annieandersonblog.com Annie Anderson

          You think that’s violent? Wow. I wonder what you think ISN’T?

          It’s a harmless thing kids do to each other when they’re wrestling or tickling or having a pillow fight. Wait – do you think all those are violent too? I always thought they were harmless kids games.

          • http://thesocialjoint.com/ Lucretia M Pruitt

            You think those are harmless kids games? Wow. I wonder what you think ISN’T?

            “Playing Doctor” and beating each other up is a thing kids do to each other when there aren’t adults around. Wait – do you think all those are violent too? I always thought kids had adults so that they could learn better.

            [/reflective sarcasm]
             
            Normally I’m not that catty in response to something – but you came out swinging and it’s quite clear that we’re not really having a conversation. You’re just up for a little verbal sparring.

            I’m relatively certain that you’re intelligent enough to realize that a lot of physical violence is dismissed using terms like ‘but they were only playing’ and ‘it was harmless kid stuff.’ If you aren’t willing to see that taking something from words to physical actions is an escalation and violent in nature? Yeah. Well… not much point in discussing it, is there?

            Ta.

        • http://annieandersonblog.com Annie Anderson

          I see no point in really responding. So I’ll just leave your comment here alone and go on my merry way. ;-)

          Have fun!

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      I didn’t say I agreed with it, Lucretia. Honestly, I’m three days and 100 comments in, and it’s getting more difficult to manage this conversation.

      But it is a very wonderful turn of phrase.

      • http://thesocialjoint.com/ Lucretia M Pruitt

        Ah! Okay. You know? That is just about as true as it gets. When the comments get so deep that you don’t want to look at your mailbox anymore? It starts becoming a haze.
        You have my sympathies and my best wishes that your post a) continues to draw attention and spark conversation and b) doesn’t drive you to madness with the comment hurricane.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Thank you, lovely. It’s starting to die down a bit now, fortunately.

      I knew what I was getting myself in for, but I decided that I had a point to make, that it mattered, and that I would do my best to engage in the conversation.

      It’s been worth it.

  • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

    Um. The comments Naomi quoted are taken out of context. The thing about “real women” was meant to mean something like “normally I write about scams by men, so it’s cool that I can now gender balance things more on this blog.” His site isn’t about attacking women, it’s about exposing sites exploiting internet newbies by selling them overpriced internet marketing ebooks.

    Naomi’s post seems written to inflame the situation more. Whereas SaltyDroid’s post seems more balanced and transparent (though still rude). So I dunno. It’s not like I think SaltyDroid is a very nice person, but he has some good points, and as far as I can tell, he didn’t actually make any of the death threats. So Naomi’s post kinda makes things muddled and reactionary…and that makes me question what actually happened. 

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      Hi Emma, thanks for replying.

      I don’t know where the threats Naomi talked about came from, which is why I made the assumption that it happened exactly as she said in order to discuss the bigger issue.

      Since I wrote this, a few people have referred me to SaltyDroid. He’s definitely not my style, and I disagree with a number of things he and his commenters say, but I have seen no threats in the bit I read.

      I have no idea whether he is the source of the threats Naomi is discussing, since she doesn’t name names, or talk much about the source. (Email? Comments which are now deleted?)

      If it didn’t happen as she said, then she owns the responsibility for lying, AND the ownership of making it even harder for other women to report threats and be taken seriously.

      But I don’t know. I wrote this article from two key assumptions because I wanted to keep us clear of the muddy specifics.

      If it happened as she said, then that is uncategorically Wrong. That much I can say for sure.

      Man this is a long comment!

      • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

        Yeah. It’s hard to know what really happened.

        But I’m wondering…what good does it do to say something is “uncategorically wrong”? I mean, does it create more peace or understanding between Naomi and these other folks? I am wondering if we as a blogging community could do something more helpful. Or at least I am wondering what, if anything, could actually lead to more peace and less violence (and by that I include harsh criticism and judgement). My take is that saying things are “really, really wrong” doesn’t usually increase peace, it tends to increase divisiveness. 

        Most people want validation, and only escalate to violence when they don’t get it (and aren’t very mature). So, in an attempt to see both sides, when I read SaltyDroid’s post, in between the rudeness etc, are some valid points. He seems genuinely concerned that newbies are not taken advantage of. I get that. Some “internet marketing” packages are really expensive, and I know a lot of business newbies who are wondering around begging for someone to tell them what to do, and what they really need is more experience and to believe in themselves. Whether Naomi is purposely taking advantage of that or not, I don’t know, but my point is that SaltyDroid’s intentions have some goodness in them. 

        When we can see someone’s goodness and hear it and respond to it, rather than react to the package it is in, that’s how peace and understanding happen.

        I wonder if Naomi had taken his points as feedback and had a real discussion about them, maybe more real discussion would have happened on his side too. When real discussion happens, people don’t usually resort to death threats. I mean, it seems like Naomi doesn’t want violence, but she doesn’t want peace either. Which is fine, I guess. But I feel less sorry/afraid for her and more turned off by the whole thing. It’s one thing to say, “I have a voice goddamnit!”. It’s another to say, “Oh, what I’m doing impacted you negatively. I’m interested to know how”.

        And, obviously, it’s very easy to critique from afar. So, my apologies to everybody for that. I am just wanting to increase the level of peace in the Universe and am throwing out ideas about that. I really don’t know that I would behave any better if I were in these circumstances.

        • Paul Cunningham

          Normally Salty Droid presents some kind of evidence of scams. Eg the boiler room recordings, the actual criminal charges against people that kind of thing.
          So far doesn’t seem to be any of that sort of proof in the accusations being levelled at people in the most recent threads. Maybe he’s got that in the pipeline, but he seems to be enjoying the lead up. And so does the readership.

          Ironically, he’s following a classic launch pattern with this series of posts. Go figure.

          Disclosure: I know some of those people in person and online, and have bought from them in the past. I’ve endorsed some of their products to others, often as an affiliate but not always, and continue to do so.

          • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

            Interesting, Paul. I learn more by the minute.

      • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

        More long comments!

        Honestly, there is so much I don’t know, or claim to know, about this situation.

        I only wrote this article because I saw, almost instantly, a trend of “Well, death threats are wrong, but Naomi did [x]…” that I had a very strong reaction to.

        That’s victim blaming, and it’s all sorts of Not Good. I wanted to remind people that no-one ever does anything to “deserve” death threats.

        As to whether the threatener in question was SaltyDroid, or someone else, or a fabrication? I have no idea.

        All I can say for sure is that I support a zero-tolerance attitude for saying that death threats are acceptable, if the circumstances justify it. ‘Cos they never, ever do. Ever.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      In personal opinion, I think there are lots of things Naomi could have handled much better. But I want to keep them very separate so they don’t become a justification for bad things to happen to her.

      • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

        Nothing justifies violence. Violence is a sad, tragic thing for everyone involved.

        But saying something isn’t justified doesn’t heal the situation. It only establishes who/what is right or wrong and that’s of limited value if the goal is conflict resolution. 

        If the goal is more inflammatory-ness, then having more right vs wrong discussions is a great avenue toward that.

        What I’m responding to is Naomi stating that it’s very important to read her words because they will prevent violence to other women, or silencing of other women. I’m not sure that’s really what’s going on. If she is actually writing words that will feed the fire, then she’s not helping prevent violence at all. Not that this means she somehow *deserves* violence (of course not, nobody does!). 

        I guess that I just think that she is, by virtue of her position, issuing a kind of call-to-arms, and I wish she was issuing more of a call-to-peace. And I know that’s a lot less dramatic and that’s kind of my point. I think she is using drama to be right, and I wish she was using her position to promote clarity and ask for reasonableness instead. 

        Thanks for the discussion BTW.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      I see your point, but I am asking for action, in one very specific sense: in making sure that no-one says that death threats are acceptable, in any circumstance.

      Thanks for the discussion, too. :)

  • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

    So, I am curious what are you hoping that will do?

  • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

    Hopefully, when someone does the usual “Yeah, but…” justification we’re all prone to, that the other party says, “Wait. Whatever you’re about to add, it doesn’t matter. Death threats are always, always wrong, and there’s nothing you can say that will make that less true.”

    Because then the people who make those threats are more likely to understand that it’s not acceptable in any circumstances. Many people who use such threats do so believing that it’s acceptable in [x] circumstance. When they realise it’s not so, they’ll stop. We all win.

  • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

    So I am wondering if you have ever talked to someone who has made such a threat? And if that equation worked? IE, you explained that it wasn’t acceptable, and then they stopped?

  • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

    Fortunately not, in regards to death threats.

    But there have been studies – and please excuse me for not digging up sources! – that have shown that people who go on to commit crimes like date rape, have a strong tendency to make jokes on the subject of date rape. It’s theorised that they use the jokes to essentially test the waters and gauge the opinion of their friends before they do it.

    I’m pretty confident that many of the threat makers would cease if they received zero support from their community. As it is, they get conditional approval, and so they feel confident to continue.

    Does that make sense?

  • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

    That does make sense. I find myself wishing that you had put this motivation in your original article. When I read it, what I took away was that you were judging their actions as “wrong, really wrong”, as if judgment inspires change, which in my experience it doesn’t.

    What it sounds like instead is that you are saying that you don’t want people in the community to convey that it’s “not that big a deal” because it *is* a big deal. You want these death-threat making people to be aware of the impact of their actions.

    This I get and I support. So, I guess all I’m saying is that I didn’t get that from the original article. What I thought you were saying was something like, “Let’s all band together and condemn these people and agree about how wrong they are.” That is not something that seems effective to me, and it felt like it would just increase the divisiveness that was already going on.

    So, I misunderstood your point. So I guess you can just take it as feedback that using words like “unacceptable” and “wrong” make some people (well, me anyway) hear judgment/condemnation/divisiveness rather than “we need to collectively set a boundary about this behavior”.

  • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

    Well said and good points, Emma. I shall remember them for the NEXT drama. :)

  • http://www.taoofprosperity.com Emma McCreary

    So, I am curious what are you hoping that will do?

  • Ali Mac

    Jumping in, sorry.  Um, I get what you are saying, but …it’s honestly difficult to respond maturely/peacefully/productively when someone is calling you a ‘slime covered spider’ in public posts, their supporters refer to you as a ‘fat turd’, and any dissenting comments are auto-hidden by the voting system?  That’s not a conversation, it’s a carefully moderated cesspool. 

    It tends to encourage mobbing, too.  (and by that I mean attacks by other people, both visible and hidden in direct emails).

    There is indeed a conversation to be had about the morality of online business development schemes, but that isn’t it.  The last couple of posts on that site are focused on her apparent private life.  Basically, she’s seen as a legitimate target because of that – and I find that every bit as nasty as the death threats.  I am usually right behind anyone who robustly criticises the kind of methods that led James Arthur Ray’s trusting disciples to end up dying in a fake sweat lodge ceremony, but the recent targets have been attacks on people like Copyblogger and Darren Rowse. (He says somewhere that it’s all a single scammy continuum). 

    What a nasty mess. Boy this got long, sorry Catherine.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      No apologies required, there are five very different conversations all happening at once – no surprises there – and so things are getting complicated.

  • Alley-Cat

    Yes the name-calling can get a bit childish at times, but it is fun :)

    So it’s legitimate for ND to mention her premature baby, kids, the wonderfulness of her marriage and even her schooling[1], when it suits her in her sales pitches, but not OK when  her critics use the same information SHE put in the public arena against her? 

    [1] I’m not sure if she’s a college drop-out or a high-school drop-out as it changes depending on which of her posts you read. 

  • http://thesocialjoint.com/ Lucretia M Pruitt

    Since I’ve already broken my initial resolve not to comment, it seems appropriate to write the comment already in my head.

    This is a beautiful post. I appreciate your rationale and sentiment. It’s your suggested response I utterly disagree with.

    Yes, we all own our own actions. But it is foolhardy at best to poke a bear with a sharp stick and then claim no responsibility in the bear’s ensuing rage.
    While it *is* victim blaming to say “yeah, but she did XYZ so she deserved it!” It is *not* victim blaming to say “doing XYZ precipitated that response, not simply the fact that she was a successful woman.”
    I say this not about Naomi, but about every victim of a sociopathic response. The enraged bear doesn’t stop to consider its own actions – it just does its best to maul you. Shoulds or should nots don’t matter to the bear.

    Is the lesson then to stand in front of the bear cage poking it with a stick and shouting “bring it on!”? Or to having identified a mad bear, to do what you can to get the hell away from the bear and to call a zookeeper?

    The phrase “don’t feed the trolls” originates from the latter – acknowledging that “bring it on!” is likely to have just such an effect. Not because you are a woman, but because the bear is a bear.

    • https://CashAndJoy.com Catherine Caine

      I understand that, Lucretia, and often I would choose the “no-stick” response.

      But I’ve already received dozens of comments and emails from people who saw that from me and felt braver as a result – plenty of them new women bloggers who could so easily decide right now that it would be simpler and safer to quit rather than have to endure what they think might be coming at them.

      If I hadn’t had role models, I would have been tempted to tone myself down and hide in fear after the Kathy Sierra threats. But they were there, so here I am.

      I cannot in any way speak for Naomi and her words. But that’s why mine exist.